Ep. 3 Going Off-Script: Mary Chukwuma on Fighting Back, On-Screen and Off

What happens when an actress defies the script? In a powerful story, Nollywood star Mary Chukwuma went off-script while playing a victim of domestic violence and chose to fight back—a moment of improvisation the director kept. This conversation is about rewriting the scripts we’re handed. Mary discusses how this mindset applies to her career as an actor and costume designer, where developing a complementary skill is key for thriving long-term in the industry. We also explore the pressure to conform to damaging beauty standards, including a candid conversation about skin bleaching and what it says about the definitions of beauty and success promoted to women. This episode is for every woman who is ready to write her own ending.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome, welcome, welcome to the We Win podcast. You are all in for a treat today because we have our guest, Mary Chukuma, who is a Nollywood actress. She has appeared in movies like Legacy, Saint Oida, Dwindle, Double Bind, Oneese. She's also well known for acting the role of Enani in Ajoche. She's also a fashion designer. Her brand is Ashmarie, and she's been responsible for some of those outfits you see designed in those movies. So let's sit back and enjoy our guest, Mary Chukuma. Hi Mary, and we are super excited to have you here with us today. So, Mary, I want to start with your work as an actress. Most of us only see the final performance, but we rarely understand the artist's process. For you, what is the most interesting part of building a character? Is it the research or finding their voice or something else entirely?

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Well, um the interesting part of building a character for me, it's when I begin to connect to the world of the character. Um, research and preparation is very important. It is what um builds the character, it helps me to study and understand how the character moves, how the character reacts, you know, what motivates the character. But to me, the magic moment actually is when I find the emotional bridge. You know, that is the moment where the character is no more feeling like something in the paper, but a character that lives through me. You understand? And then that is when the performance becomes authentic, the performance is honest, and it helps people to truly connect. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

So you become the character to become one.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Basically, that is the best way.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Yes. You also design costumes for Nollywood movies through your company Ash Marie. I'm a fan, I have to say. How does your insight as an actor, knowing what it takes to physically and emotionally become a character, influence the way you design your clothes?

SPEAKER_00 2:39

So there is uh so much connection between acting and costuming. They are both creative work. And as an actor, it has helped me to understand that even the smallest details like, you know, the color, the texture of the fabric, how the fabric flows and all that, you know, can shift your role. So that is why when Ash Marie wants to design costume, first I think of transformation. You understand, total transformation. Because clothes aren't just decoration, they are what defines the character. It is part of the character psychology. It tells if this character is elegant, you know, if this character is lazy, if this character is rebellious, and so on and so forth. So, my goal actually is to make sure that when the actor is wearing the costume, the actor feels like he's in the skin of the character. You understand? So it helps the performance to be real. And when the costume is authentic, the performance definitely will be more authentic.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Awesome. I just love the thoughts that go into designing these costumes that you factor in the character just to ensure that they fully align. So, with your experience uh both in front and behind the camera, you have a unique view of the Nollywood effect. How powerful is Nollywood in setting fashion trends and shaping what people aspire to wear? Does it create the culture or does it just reflect what's already happening in the streets of Lagos?

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Well, it does both actually reflect and also create. I mean, what we do is basically bring the reality of Lagos style, Lagos Street style to, you know, out there. But because Nollywood reaches millions of people, it shapes what one wears. A character's outfit can inspire trend overnight. That's the truth. And it can make local fashion becomes a culture moment. So Nollywood has that power, you understand. And even if you check with our youths today and all that, you can check. It influences a lot. All you just need to do is see a particular style or an outfit on a character, and either you find out the costume designer or you even reach out to your own designer to say, okay, hey, how can you recreate this for me? It happens so many times. So, because of that, that is why as costumers also we have to be detailed in what we do because people are watching every day and people pick things from it every day.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Yeah, we see that in Hollywood anyway. People are copying the latest styles that come out from Hollywood styles. So why shouldn't Nollywood have the same effect? So do you think that the nature of the character also affects the trend? Of course, yes, it does. Okay, so you're saying, okay, for a villain, for instance, would a villain attract a certain trend?

SPEAKER_00 5:51

So the thing that is that when it comes to trend, your personality also plays a major role. You understand what type of trend you follow. There are people who just like, um, who can I use, for example? For example, like Patience Ozoko, you understand? Especially when you go to the East and all that. A lot of women, I mean, the one who look like her because she represents power, she represents respect. It's like she represents, don't joke with me, you understand, kind of look. So, you know, I was also mentioned talking about Eucaria those days. You know, she looks classy, she looks elegant, but she looks, don't mess with me. You understand? And that's the statement. You know, most often what determines trend is statement. And what statement is it giving to you? And that is where your own personality comes to play. So that's why, even when there is trend, it's not everybody that follows it. You understand? But it influences. That's the that's that's the key one.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Wow. I can imagine that sort of uh following, they would be very fierce on the road. So Nollywood has a massive supply of talented people and a limited number of lead roles. Given that reality, many actors must also be entrepreneurs. How important is developing a complementary skill like what you've done with your design for an actor's long-term survival in the industry?

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Well, Nollywood has plenty of talent, uh, but um limited uh leading roles. And that is why somebody like me did not just stop in acting. I'm also involved in designing and I also produce. Yes. So the bottom line is it's all about freedom, it's all about telling stories in different ways. You understand? Um, you can't just sit there and wait for someone to determine how it goes. So you really cannot be the leader actor all the time, and it's not everybody that will be privileged to even get the leading role because it's not that much. But we have a lot of talents. But for every single character that you get, either is the leading character or the small one, your work is basically give it the best. Because the films where you've even had, you know, someone that played a small character even shines more than, you know, that's what people remember about that particular movie. So, yes, finding a balance is important. You don't just limit yourself to the acting.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Yeah, I think it's also important for actors to know that you don't have to have a leading role to shine. So you have another creative outlet within Nollywood, which is your design work. What other opportunities are there for, you know, young actors or actresses coming in to Nollywood to have as an additional outlet for their creativity?

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Well, first of all, I would want to state that when I started as an actor, I started first as an actor, and it took years down the line before I went into costuming. And I'm saying this for us to understand better where my answer is leading to, in the sense that when I joined the industry, costuming was one of the departments I didn't like because I felt there was so much work, clothes everywhere, you know, and all that. So it wasn't fun to me. Um, first of all, acting is my passion, and I see costuming and styling and other things as calling, you know. So, but when you join the industry and you're not getting as much as you wished for in acting, it is ideal that you open up yourself to other things. You understand? It helps you to identify your strength more. You can go into costuming like I did, you can go into makeup, you know, you can go into camera handling, I mean, directing, producing. You understand? You don't have to even go to other departments. You can even from as an actor become a producer, you understand. I mean, if the connection is there, the flow is there, and all that, but you don't limit yourself pursuing just acting because over time it can be exhausting and you might be frustrated and depressed. So, yes, open up. The industry is big. Storytelling, script writing, editing, you know, character analysis and all that. I mean, so on and so forth. Just open up, don't limit yourself to acting.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Yeah, I agree with you. There's so much in there, and not just the acting, but all the supporting roles that are played to make sure that a production is successful, are open to people looking. So being an entrepreneur in Lagos has its own unique challenges. It's about navigating everything from power cuts to traffic to building something from nothing. How is the specific environment of Lagos, its energies, its obstacles, shape you into a more creative and resourceful business owner?

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Okay, so um, Lagos is tough. It has its own energy, but it also helps your creativity if you're open to it. Um it can break you and it can shape you, but you also have to sit to make the best of it. Lagos is, I don't know, you know, with the challenges we face every day, the power cut, like you said, the way of life in Lagos, first of all, it's it's fast, you understand, and it's spontaneous. So your response to it, if it's not adequate, it can break you. You understand? You always have to sit up, and that is why the like of me, um, I didn't just limit myself to acting. I also have to go into, you know, it's not just about the creative part of it, but also the storytelling, you understand? To find a balance to be able to go through Lagos.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Yeah. The makeup break part is so obvious, and I guess it means you need to be agile and very responsive to the opportunities and the threats around you. So the pressure to succeed often shows up in how people present themselves. On social media, there's a lot of conversation about the need to dress the part. From your perspective as a designer, what does the intense focus on appearance say about the economic pressures and the dreams of young people in Lagos?

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Well, um, fashion and ambition has a connection sort of in Lagos here. Um, it is said that the way you dress is the way you be addressed. And especially in a city where first impression goes a long way and it can open doors for you. It is essential that you present yourself right. So for every time you dress well, it's not just because you're influenced or you just want to live Lagos life, it's also a way of survival, is the struggle to survive. You understand? So, yeah, it can be challenging, but as a designer, I understand that it's not just about the dressing, it's about what you achieve by the end of the day. You need to look the part to get the part.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

So, staying on the theme of pressure, would you say that for casting there is a lot of uh pressure on young actors to look a certain way, to show up in certain clothes. Would you say that's a factor in the natural casting process?

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Well, yes, it is, but uh by the end of the day, it is the goal to achieve that is um more important. So uh you just have to focus on the bigger goal. That's just it. There, especially in a city like this, there are price to pay for everything that you do. Um, you either get it right or you get it right. Those are the options before you.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Yeah, get it right or get it right. That's uh options. So the pressures can go deeper than just clothes. I was moved by a recent Instagram post where you shared a story about a backhanded comment someone made expressing surprise that you hadn't bleached your skin. What do you think the prevalence of skin bleaching in our culture says about the definition of beauty and success that are often promoted to women?

SPEAKER_00 14:26

So, first of all, when it comes to my skin tone, um it is personal and is also political. If I would say that, you know, it's a movement for me because I mean I'd gone through that since I was young. Um, yeah, so I'm very passionate about it. So that's why I said that, pardon me. Um, so I remember then when I joined the Knollywood, uh, when I was quite young, when I joined the Nollywood, and I know what it is that just because you're not light-skinned, you most likely would lose a particular character. Because not just about the interpretation of the character, but because they just feel that uh based on the foreign belief that you have to be light to be beautiful, first of all. You understand? That's one major challenge. You have to look a certain way to be beautiful. I mean, to look beautiful, and that's a foreign belief that does not go down with me. Secondly, I know that um in terms of lightning and all that, sometimes they run away from the work, they feel they need to do more to light up a dark person, you understand, to look the way they want. And by the end of the day, you're depriving me of you know my job and what I could do just because you're not efficient enough at what you do. Aside from that, relating back to my post, as much as dark skin is sort of promoted, you understand. I mean, but we still have that undernate belief and criticism that comes sort of the way they rate you, the way they look you, you know, because you're dark skin. And I would say for me, maybe because right from childhood, I never liked bleaching. You know, I saw some of those ants those days that bleach and the way they look funny for me. I didn't like it. But I feel that's grace for me, you know, disliking it right from time, not to even attempt it when the pressure came. You understand? So that helped me. But for those who couldn't handle the pressure, I mean, it's it's not nice, it's not right. I don't like bleaching. I can never bleach. You can make me bleach, I am black and beautiful. In fact, like I said in my video, I was darker when I was younger. In my school days, then I was really darker, and I miss that part of me because what it gives me is an identity, it makes me stand out, it makes me look unique away from others. That's the way I feel. So I'm not saying yellow is not beautiful, light complexion is beautiful. I mean, part of my family are even fair. You know, I just fall into one of the few that are dark, but it's a grace that most people do not have, and I'm proud of it.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Well, you've definitely been endowed with grace to appreciate your own skin tone without any prejudice. I hope a lot of dark-skinned women understand that they need to embrace themselves and embrace that melanin. Okay, so as both an actor and a costume designer, you are literally in the business of creating images. How do you see this pressure around skin tone play out within the industry itself? Is this something you have to navigate in casting or consider when designing for a character?

SPEAKER_00 17:43

So, for me, first of all, as a producer, I have the opportunity to cast. I have the opportunity to choose those who play a particular character. And storytelling, most often in this region, has to do with our way of life. So I feel that using dark-skinned people tells the story better. I'm not saying we don't have light skin here, or you understand, but in terms of interpretation, I definitely will cast more of dark people. Not because I am dark, but because I am telling a real story of real people that exist. And we have a lot of dark people here. That's the truth. Imagine you want to do the calculation now, just add those that's bleached to the dark that we have in the dark people we have left. We are many, you understand? So tell our story, tell it in our skin tone, you understand, and it becomes more real. Aside from that, in terms of costume design, all I have to do is play with colors on the dark person, and the skin pops. And it even helps my creativity better to have that dark-skinned person in front of the camera looking gorgeous, looking elegant, and looking powerful.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

So I love that. But what would you say to a young Nollywood actress who didn't get that leading character role because of her skin tone?

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Okay, so um, for me, it is what it is, it's the reality of life. As much as I'm dark-skinned, I honestly would not want to reduce that answer to just dark skin girls. Um, because aside from your skin, there are other reasons in the industry why someone would want to sabotage you from getting a particular role or even getting a job at all. You know, but like I said, if you know yourself, you know your strength, you're true to yourself. Um, you need to check within you, assess yourself properly, and see other things that you could do that would engage you, first of all, so you don't become desperate. Because once you're desperate, you do things you're not supposed to do to get roles. And when you get the role, but you get a role, but you don't get a character that you earned because of your abilities. Trust me, it's not about the leading character, it's about the character itself. Whatever character you're playing, be true to it, live in it, let the character live through you, embody that character. And trust me, the sky will be your limit. They can reject you today, but when tomorrow comes, they would look for you. Either your skin is black or your tongue is black, it does not matter. They will look for you.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

So it's all about the character and the character of the actor coming together and being believable and authentic, and that makes them more attractive to casting managers. So, Mary, how do you feel about acting and costume designing? So, if you were to weigh them both, which one would you say is more significant to you?

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Well, like I said, I started off as an actor and then I went into fashion designing first, clothmaking and all that, before I got into costuming. It was never intended, it was never what I wanted to do. But you know, there are some things you just lay your hands on and they just work. And people just trust you, they just believe in you. And because I'm the type that I don't want to disappoint, even when I don't know much about what you're saying, I want to go and learn more about it, I want to know more about it, just not to disappoint you. And because of people's reaction towards it and how much it has enriched me mentally, physically, even spiritually, you know, and financially, you know, I began to see it more like, mmm, God has plans for you. Just listen to him. You understand? And I stayed away from acting for years because I mean, I wasn't getting jobs that much. Uh, I went into beating, bead making, and all that, and then before I went to learn fashion designing. So I stayed away for about like seven years, and in that seven years, I was able to be. Build a lot for myself. That's the way, that's the only way I was able to build Ashmarie as a brand. Sitting down here today doing this interview, I feel rich, I feel powerful. That by the time I went back to acting, it was more of my terms and not their terms. But if I didn't listen, because at that time somebody was believing in me and trusting me with this, that's a message to say, hey, you can do this. So it's a calling to me. I see it more as a calling. And thank God that I was able to listen to that call. And little did I know, seven years after, that they actually intertwine. They are connected. Like I said earlier on, acting and costume designing are very connected. And I began to see the beauty of costuming enhancing me as an actor. You see, if you wake me from sleep now, trust me, I will go for acting. I love drama. Not just the drama, I love the fact that I have to live through different characters every day of my life if possible. I feel the world is boring. You understand? So for me, it's entertaining that I had to live like a thief today, and I live like a prostitute tomorrow, and I live like one elegant person living in a castle, and I can live, you understand? So that it helps me to balance up mentally. So if you leave me any day, anytime, that is my passion. But every other thing is a calling. And I listen and I'm here.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

I totally love that response. Um, you're so passionate, Mary. And even though you wanted to do acting, you knew you understood your calling to be a designer, and now you're doing both, so good for you. So, Mary, we've talked about the pressures of appearance, the challenges of the creative industry, and the hustle required to build a life on your own terms. For the young woman listening who is trying to find her own voice amidst all the noise, what is your one piece of advice for staying true to herself while building her path?

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Well, avoid the noise. It does not exist. It's only in your head if you listen to it. You are more powerful, you are strong, you are beautiful, and you need to know that. And once you know that, you leave that and it shows in everything that you do. So you have to you have to stay true to yourself in full, and it reflects in whatever job, whatever thing you find yourself doing in life, it reflects.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Now that's great advice. So I have one more question. I just want to know, and I'm sure our listeners also want to know what's your favorite character that you've played?

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Oh the famous Nai just elaborate on that famous Nai El Joche. Wow. Okay, pardon me that I'm laughing this much. Um so over the years, um, because of my look, I look, I know I look mean sort of when I'm not smiling. But I'm direct opposite. So when you give me a character to play and you want me to be mean, it's like you're not seeing it. You understand? You're not feeling what you're seeing, rather. And that's why I said earlier that for acting, you have to connect to the world of that character. You understand? If you don't, it creates that vacuum. People are just watching you acting, they are not watching you leaving that character. But for me, was the deal breaker. You understand? And I mean, it's just a job where they called me a few days before I went on set to say, Oh, there's this job, oh, just come, you know. I mean, this is what they're paying you, this is the character. But there wasn't a character Bible to it. You understand? They just told me, Oh, this is the name of the character, you're supposed to be a wife to this person. Um, I didn't even know it was a 260 episode. You understand? I just said, Shabby will define work now. Oh, yeah, let me go and act, you know. And I went on set one, two times, and for whatever reason, I began to connect to NIE in a different way. This is a character of a woman who is married to a royal family. Her husband is a very angry, unfulfilled brother of the king who assumed that the power is supposed to be for him and not the brother, and was willing to do anything to take over the throne. And he's so egoistic, he's arrogant, and that reflects in the way he treats his wife. You understand? He has a son that is not um that brilliant, who he would have wished would succeed the throne. You understand? I mean, after whatever it is. And because of the way he treats his wife, over a period of time, the wife had to sit up and began to challenge this man. And for whatever reason, I was able to connect to this character, it became very, very interesting because the story had to shift. Even the the you know, one thing about acting, especially when you're doing series, the audience are following, you understand, and what they react to every day or every week is where the story began to tend to, you understand. So, I mean, you could see that people began to feel that character and they began to write more about NIE. And somebody that was supposed to just come and work for a few weeks worked for like almost a year. Every week I was shooting, every week they were writing new things about NIE, and NIE became that bad monster who, you know, just for all whatever fulfillment, decided to go on this evil journey with her husband, you know, to achieve his um intention. And, you know, she became the witch, if I would call her. I mean, yes. And over time, because she suffered abuse with her husband, uh, domestic abuse, over time she had to sit up. In fact, one of the days when her husband was about to hit her, she jacked the man. Like, no, enough is enough. You can't do this. And the man didn't see it coming. And that was the turning point. If only women could sit up. I'm not saying you should fight your husband. I'm just saying you need to draw the line. Because it is where you put yourself that the man will put you. You understand? You need to draw the line, you have to be submissive, you have to be humble, but you also have to be firm. Because at that point, everything about that character, about at home, and about the story at large changed. That was a performance that was not in the script. It was just my reaction. And that was because at that point I was living in that character. So I reacted. I wasn't supposed to stop him. I wasn't supposed to hold him. Yes, I was the story, the way the story was written, I was just, you know, I mean, that same person that would beat on the floor and be crying. So but it kept going, kept going. I think for that day we had different scenes where he was beating me. You know, the way we shoot, we shoot different scenes, and then later they go edit and then move this to episode one, move this to episode 10. And then I think that we had different scenes of that scene. So I think at the point my body was just like, enough! You can't keep doing this. And then they kept filming, and when they cut the camera, the director just looked at me and said, Wow! Okay, we are keeping this. You know, um, what was his name? General Affair. Um, what's his real name again? How can I forget? You know, he's my my my friend. Even him was like, uh-uh, this baby are, you know, so sometimes when you allow the character to live through you, it helps you to give it even a stronger interpretation. And that really helped me in playing that character. And trust me, even when I got back home, at a point my husband would just look at me and I, because it's like you could see the character all over. Even after I finished the job, I had to just pray to like, no, this is not me, you know, and just get back to my normal self. But it was interesting, it was challenging, it was daring, and trust me, I would want to experience that all over again, anytime, any day.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Wow, that's so powerful. Uh, you know, there are a lot of women out here who understand domestic violence, and you became so intertwined in your character, and you felt her pain, and you stopped your husband from beating you senseless, and it just shows that you're very passionate about your role. But what you inadvertently did was you sent a very strong message to the men out there and to the women to say, no, this is not right. And I think your director had no choice but to accept your improvisation because it it sung volumes. Mary, I'm just blown away. This this session has been so igniting and electrifying, and I thank you so much for being our guest today on the We Win podcast. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Always a pleasure. Always a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Wow, guys, uh that was very enthralling. Um, Mary was just giving us the great vibes of being independent, being proud, you know, never give up, follow your dream, know your calling. It's all in a day's work for Mary. It's also for us women to understand that the role we play in life is very complex. We have to know ourselves and we have to be determined and discerning in what we want. We don't have to be desperate to get an acting role, we don't have to bleach to look a certain way. We just need to be ourselves, we need to show up professional and ready to take on life. So I hope you all enjoyed today's episode. I certainly did, and I'm wishing you all a fierce and powerful day today. Bye.