EP. 27 Conscious Storytelling: Ruth Mahogany on Using Poetry as a Tool for Change

Spoken word poet Ruth Mahogany describes her work as "conscious storytelling," having collaborated with massive global organizations like the United Nations Population Fund and Amnesty International. In this episode, we unpack her creative process for turning "dry policy" and complex themes like human rights into art that makes people feel. She also shares how she balances the free-flowing spirit of an artist with discipline, and how she protects her mental health while constantly pouring her emotions into her craft.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello, hello, hello everyone. Welcome to the WeWin Podcast powered by Accelerate Her Africa in partnership with the Human Pattern Institute. I am your host, Lolita Edgefor, and it's such a pleasure to be with you today. You know, I always say I like to have a variety of guests from all stages in life, and today's guest is a very young lady who moves between melody and meaning, between rhythm and revelation. Ruth Mahogany is a poet, a singer, a music producer, and a conscious storyteller. She has a gift for turning complexity into clarity and silence into song. Her artwork speaks for those who cannot speak. From partnering with the United Nations Population Fund, championing girl-child education, to standing with Amnesty International for Human Rights and Free Speech. This young lady weaves purpose into every performance, every word, and every note. Her work consistently returns to a timeless truth that we must look inwards to conquer ourselves. That empathy is our compass, and that our shared humanity is a thread that binds us all. Ruth creates art that entertains and awakens. Let's listen to feel and be transformed. Hello, Ruth. Welcome to the WeWin Podcast. It's such a pleasure to have you here with us today. Thank you very much. So, Ruth, looking at your background, I see a BSE in accounting and finance from Landmark University. You had the ticket to the safe corporate life that many of our listeners are living right now. Yet, you chose to become a poet and musician. Can you take us back to the moment you decided to leave the spreadsheet for the stage? Was that a terrifying leap or did it feel like a relief?

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Um, okay, so this is a very multifaceted question. There is the personal belief that no path is totally safe, that every path is quite difficult, and that we should we have to all choose our difficulty. Um for me, as much as while I was supposed to write my jam and choose my courses, I wanted to choose a path in either mass communication, something about communication, and I couldn't articulate that properly to my family. Um, so I landed myself in accounting and finance. Really, that's how I got into accounting and finance, trying to articulate myself. So when it was time for me to make a decision, there was also the fact that I wasn't so healthy then, and I also wanted to choose a path that will help me control a lot of my showing up. So while already I already had influences as a child, listening to a lot of artists and growing up at this particular moment, I just decided that okay, first choose your own difficulty. If not, you wake up at a point in life and find out that wait, is this life really mine, or is it one that was directed by other people without a lot of say in my life? So was it a relief? Uh a relief, a little bit of a relief in the sense that I have started a path I want to start, but I I was also plunging myself into the unknown and starting something that I didn't have a lot of direction for because I didn't have persons very close to me that had walked the path. So it was really risk-taking, that is what I will say.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Yes, you seem like a big risk taker, you know, having gotten a degree in finance and completely pivoted to music and arts, but it's very brave as well, and I believe it's paying off. So many creative people struggle to make a living, often facing pressures from family to get a real job. How did you navigate the pressure to conform? And how did you convince the stakeholders in your life, i.e., your parents and your mentors, that art was a viable career path?

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Okay, okay, thank you. I love this question. I would say first that every human being, a human adult, has authority over their lives and the parts they choose. Right. The extent to which we are ready to take full responsibility or the most responsibility to our parts is the extent to which we can take decisions. Because a lot of times our stakeholders really want to know that you are not going to totally depend on them somehow, like they want you to stand on your feet. So the fact that our mentors and stakeholders now approve, uh, they might not totally be willing to support immediately until they see that oh, this looks viable. So for me, it was really taking the bull by the horn. Would I say that? Um, I had to take responsibility for my choices. I wasn't going, I wasn't like, oh, I am an artist and this is what it is. You have to um deal with it. No, I was like, I am an artist. I stared stare myself in the face and say it's a it's a difficult path, but you have to take responsibility to make it work. So I don't expect anybody to push me, I don't expect anybody to maybe open um doors for me because it's not the path I was advised to take. So, because of that, I've had to really push really hard and stretch myself really hard. And now, because of that, I see that the people who we say stakeholders and family members now they've they when they see precedence, when they see that okay, this is making sense and there's consistency, there you there's also the growth, but like everybody can see that you are not the same person, you're growing, you're you take like more responsibilities and all of that. When they see that, they somehow begin to be begin to like okay, fine, but eventually, what I am just saying is that we have authority to make our decisions, the extent to which we take responsibility for them.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

I hear you on that. Um, I think also in yourself, you have to find the motivation and you know that you have taken a path which is not necessarily in agreement with your stakeholders, but something you firmly believe in, and having that confidence to push through regardless, and even taking responsibility is very key. Okay, so Ruth, you list web design and digital marketing alongside your poetry. You are what we might call a portfolio careerist, someone with multiple distinct income streams. Do you see this eclectic mix as a necessity for survival in the arts, or is it a deliberate way to keep your work fresh?

SPEAKER_02 7:36

Like I would say again, I see questions like this as not totally absolute. It's not this or that, it's this and that. In the sense that delving into like other skills helps me to stretch my capacity as an artist. Because when I come into spaces where I have to host events or I have to organize events, somehow my design mind helps me think differently. Right? So there is deliberately stretching in other fields to help me, to help my thinking, but also because of survival, and this is what I mean is that when you show up in art spaces desperate without maybe something to fall back into, I have noticed that you are paid less, right? So the fact that I have deliberately stretched into like building other skills so that I can stretch my value and stretch my capacity. So it has really been both survival and a way to help my capacity, and and over time, also there's there's also the fact that like I want to lead projects, and in leading projects, I I am more comfortable knowing, understanding the roles of other people who are working with me. So this is also like the same way, it's the same way I delved into other skills, even in the industry, like understanding videography, video editing, music production, and all of that. So when I step into a space and I have to lead in that space, and I'm telling the music producer to do so so so thing, or I am telling the music chance to do so so thing, I understand the chords that you should play, I can articulate it. So the same way, because I know that like I would need for the creative space, I would need all of these hands over time. Um, it is also a way. So sometimes when I would have to work with other persons that have these skills because I have an understanding of it, it helps me lead things better. So that's also one of the mindsets that has pushed me to having skills in other fields.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Yeah, yeah, makes sense. Um, you're not just showing up as a poet, but you're also showing up with technical skills and showing off your capacity so you gain more respect, as you say, you get paid more if you come across knowledgeable. And even in the work you do, being able to work with your sound person to be able to give them instructions, you're coming from a leadership perspective. So well done for that. You describe your work as conscious storytelling and you've collaborated with massive global organizations like the United Nations Population Fund and Amnesty International. This proves that poetry isn't just entertainment, it's a tool for change. When an organization comes to you with a complex theme like human rights or malnutrition, what is your process for turning that dry policy into art that makes people feel? Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

So the answer to this is into art that makes people feel. I find the people elements. So when we talk about severe acute malnutrition, I begin to think about the child. I become the child to be able to write the story of the child and advocate for the child. When we talk about human rights, um, we had um persons like the journalists. So I think about the journalists who is dragged from their home and who has a family to feed, but also has to go out there to get information while being censored. And I think about the youth that is out there on the streets just trying to articulate their rights and also be respected in their human rights. So one of the things for me is I become the people I want to advocate for. So when an organization comes to me and they might come with policy and all the strategies, and or I what I think about for the storytelling is I think about people. When I am able to go into the space of oh, the child, or go into the space of oh, that mother whose child was shot, or go into the space of the people that are being advocated for, and also sometimes the people who are being spoken to, who is being advocated to. I can now write a story that can go into people, something that people will receive, um, a story where people are not uh where people do not listen and are quickly defensive about something where people can put their shoes in order, put their legs in other people's shoes, and see that wait, okay, this is what it feels to be this person, then maybe I too should advocate for the person. So usually that is how um I bring my solutions, that is how like I write, that is the perspective that I write from.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Wow. So your um energy for empathy is so profound that you're able to observe the people in their situation, then you get in tune with what they're feeling, and then you're able to translate that into a narrative through your poetry and songs. So, you know, I'm gonna ask you, right? Because I just have to listen to one of your poems, and I want the audience to get a sense of a story. Let me use a girl, for example. She's she's lost her voice, she's not sure about the world she's in, she's trying to find herself, she feels hopeless, and let this poem give her hope.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

Okay, you're putting me on the spot, but but I like it. This is what I do. Um, girl, do not cower. Gracefully adorn yourself with confidence with your superpower. Learn, grow, do not lose your fire. Meet obstacles on the road, you should open fire. And no, you're not perfect. So when snide comments come at you, know that you should let them bounce off like water off a dog's feathers. When it comes to being you, no one does it better. And hello girl, you are divine. You've got a halo girl, so do not stay low, girl. See, dust is no food for royalty, do not bite it. Self-doubt is a distraction, do not mind it. The chaos is material for a beautiful story, you should write it. You girl, you are a woman, you are deserving, so do not let your self-esteem go swerving, girl.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Beautiful. Thanks for sharing that. I loved it.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

All right then. Okay, so for the corporate leaders listening who struggle to connect with their teams or customers emotionally, what can they learn from a spoken word poet about how to capture an audience's attention and hold it?

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Okay, first thing, I do not know how failing is received in the corporate space. For me, one of the first things I would say is learning from failing. A lot of times, and even as women, we have very high expectations of our behavior, which is wonderful because it's a great thing, but that we give other people more grace than we give ourselves. Right? So the first thing is connecting with your team by trying and failing first, right? That is how first I learn. I learn by trying and failing. Then the next thing is introspection and proactiveness. This is what I mean. Every time you go into or you're trying to connect with true introspection, you are able to spend time to find out, oh, how did I show up in this interaction? How could I be better? Was I um are they are there better ways to interact? Because we can't control other people's behaviors totally, right? So for me, again, I would say is um this spoken word poet has learned from doing and failing and trying again, and this shows up in connecting with him. So if we bring consciousness to how we interact with others and can spend time with ourselves to analyze how we show up, the connection you would have on your first team, your team number five, will be better than the one you had with team number one, right? So there's the whole saying that we can only meet others as deeply as we've met ourselves. So when working with people, like I am attuned to myself. Why did I feel unhappy about that? I notice this reaction here and there, and I talk about absolutism. This does not mean that we are always going to show up happy or show up shining teeth with everyone. No, this is where like we get to learn wisdom, know when to show up firm and know when to apply some care and all of that. So, um, really, this is how when I have had to lead people um and get motive um motivates people, is I check in. Oh, are they motivated by what I am saying? Are they inspired? And what are the ways I am showing up um that might not make these people feel inspired? And you you get me. Um, a lot of my process, like I would say, just comes from learning, from pairing introspection and proactiveness. So it's not just about thinking about it. Um, when I show up every day, I show up, I try to show up just one percent better than I did yesterday, or maybe 0.01%, but just a tad bit, and a lot of giving myself a lot of grace, and yeah. This is my own strategy and perspective, yeah. And I hope I hope it works for someone out there.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Well, um, what you're saying is absolutely correct. A lot of people don't give themselves grace, and leaders don't want to make mistakes, they want to like come across fallible, and that affects how they show up. So they're not actually being authentic to themselves. And and you also mentioned being introspective, thinking about what you did. How did I perform? Were these people motivated by what I just did? Were they inspired by what I just did? So I think that's a lesson for us leaders to take on board. Okay. Um, you are currently a creative director at Bat Media, managing projects that include videography and songwriting. This requires structure, deadlines, and management. How do you balance the free-flowing spirit of an artist with the discipline required to deliver for clients?

SPEAKER_02 19:05

Okay, okay, thank you. Thank you for that question. I served as creative director um with art media and communication, and I am currently transitioning. I registered my company this year, Big Feline Agency, um, and it's about the same thing we do. First off, a lot of my work in the creative space might be slightly erratic. There are times where there is a lot of workload, and then there are times where I have a lot of free time. However, to help me build structure, I have imputed structure in my own personal life through journaling and exercising. So, with exercising, I am able to take on more pressure, and with journaling, I'm able to be very clear about what is going on, um, what my tasks are, and how I should achieve them. So, this um helps me with clarity, and I have learned to detach from the final outputs of another person. This doesn't mean in excellence, right? I mean that in terms of direction. When I'm working with some other person's work, I understand that they have their direction, they have a way they want it to go, right? And if I would take a little more time with my own with my own work, I wouldn't bring that process into another person's work. For that, that other person's work is just about delivering. So I might communicate my in quote advice, um, but I am not attached to how it turns out so much. So that way, because there's less attachment, and I again I say not in the space of um excellence, there's less attachment into exactly how the output would look. I can now apply speed where necessary, and like I said, I have there's clarity, so sometimes I have my to-do lists. Oh, this is what I should do. After this, I should do this, and after this, I should do this, and that's really simply my to-do list, journaling and clearing my head, my to-do list, and exercising a lot. I think a lot of long walks helps me clear my brain. These activities are what helps me bring structure when I have to work with clients.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Good. I think what you're actually saying that is you have a prioritization list. You have a list of things you need to do, when you need to do them, and that gives you a sense of direction, and you're not comparing yourself with others. So, Ruth, you toured Spain with a band, won Poetry Slams, and authored poems for the Abuja Building Book. You are achieving global recognition young. What is the biggest misconception that the older established generation has about young creatives in Nigeria today?

SPEAKER_02 22:14

Okay, thank you very much for that question. There was this time where there's this quote lazy youths, um, and there is the misconception that we might be lazy because we like on using unconventional parts to solve problems.

unknown 22:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Um, and I am an example of that. I would maybe take some time, right? If I see a problem and maybe everyone is going head on to solve it, and in the way that they have always solved it, there's this lesson I learned where you can't use the same consciousness that created a problem to solve it, right? So for some of us, there is the maybe misconception that we might not know what's happening, but then when we show up and then we come with like very solid solutions, some of the reactions I've gotten from people is surprised. This young small girl knows this much or can solve this much. So um I would just say there is the misconception of laziness because we like we want to solve problems through a new or novel path. There is that, and also I maybe cluelessness, right? But then when they interact with us or interact with me, some people are very shocked as how much solution I could provide given the circumstances.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Yeah. Yeah, I think there's a generational gap in how we see problems as an older generation and the way you young people go about solving them. And you know, time will tell whether the way it's being done today is the best way or whether it's the traditional way. The jury's still out on that one. So we'll leave it there. Okay. Um, you are a songwriter for the Songs of Love Foundation in New York. Writing songs for sick children or people in need requires immense emotional intelligence. How do you protect your own mental health when you are constantly channeling deep emotions for your work?

SPEAKER_02 24:31

Okay, so um, first off, I try to make sure that I am not constantly channeling deep emotions to other people's work. There are some times where I reduce the amount of work I might take, and um I use alignment to do that. Like if I feel like right now, do I believe that I can tell the story in the best possible light? Because I also need a lot of like my projects or starting off as an artist, didn't really start off because I was creating for others, it started because I was creating through sharing my philosophical perspective and sharing in my introspection. So I am pretty deliberate. I am pretty deliberate when I take something up. I take it up with my whole heart. But when I have to pass, it almost feels like purpose. Like when I have to pass and create something, I have to find the time to do it. Um, you can't pour out what you don't have. A tree could only create give up fruits when the tree is well nourished. Um, a tree can only give up shade when it has taken enough nutrients to create leaves. Um, so that is how I am I am constantly very deliberate, deliberate about oh, how um is my mind feeling? And this year I released released my second album, but I lost my dad in February, and that affected my creativity. Um, so lots of a lot of people have reached out to me, maybe to make maybe sometimes to join in on projects, and I am careful when I see that oh, why am I doing this? There are some times where you just do things for productivity and not necessarily um because uh you really want to do it. So it's and when I say really want to do it, I mean that the project has to inspire me first, right? So, in the case of the children writing for the sick children, um for songs of love foundation, that project brings me immense joy, right? So, as much as I am writing for them, I'm writing their stories, they give every song has a unique story. I am so joyful about creating it that after I create that, it pays me back in joy, so it's not a it's not just sucking out of me. So there's also that. So I give my time to projects that I know that when this leaves me, I look at it and I'm like, okay, I created that, and there's a joy, so as much as I am pouring myself into it, it's pouring itself back into me. So I'm quite deliberate about that, and that's the way I have been able to create authentic content that when I leave, when I drop that content, I know that okay, this this is me, this carries my spirit, this carries my soul.

unknown 27:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

As a young woman, you certainly know how to manage your emotions and look at situations and reframe them to be positive. And I just love what you said about singing for these sick children, gives you joy. It doesn't take from you, it's actually pouring into you, and so you enjoy doing it and you're able to be more purposeful in what you do, and it's such a lovely thing. Okay, Ruth, you represent a different path from many of our guests. If you could speak directly to the woman listening who has achieved the corporate dream but feels like she has lost her own voice along the way, what advice would you give her about finding the courage to express herself again?

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Um, well, first thing I say um about advice is that whenever anyone advises you, take the advice, brood on it, and advise yourself. That's the first thing I would say. The second thing I would say to you is that many years from now, when you wake up in your bed, would you be happy about your choices? If you will be, then you can keep on going. If you don't think you will totally be able to own your choices, then there is always a way to start little by little towards expressing yourself, and that does not necessarily mean leaving your corporate path and jumping into a more uncertain path like mine, but starting, just starting every day. Um, there is this book I'm reading called The Pillars of Self-Esteem, and one of the lessons I learned from that is that if we bring five percent consciousness into issues every day, just a little, you don't need to make a huge mighty step to turn around everything. Some people might be led to do that, it's good for you, but just a little. Like, how can I show up a bit more authentic? Just a little, and then in a year's time you would see progress, and in two years' time you would see progress, and in three years' time, and in ten years' time, you would be proud that you took a tough step, but that thing that is tugging at you will not stop tugging at you till your deathbed.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

That's what I'm going to say, and again, everybody can advise you from today till tomorrow. The decision and the action remains with you.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Yes, absolutely. You just reminded me of one of my past guests, and she said when you have that itch, if you don't scratch it, it will keep itching you until you fulfill it. And that's what purpose is like: it will keep tugging at you, your words, until you actually do something about it.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Exactly. I like that analogy. Um, I I think I will also take it to the itch.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Yes, the itch. So, Ruth, you have a project called Alchemy. Can you tell us a bit about that?

SPEAKER_02 31:02

Yeah, so alchemy kind of aligns with the question you just asked me about the woman out there. So, this is a multifaceted project. I would give like the key insights around this. The first thing about alchemy is walking through fire to turn into gold. It's from the ancient um practice of turning base metal to gold, the philosopher's stone. In this case, the philosopher's stone will be our path, and we are the base metal. So when the philosopher's stone and base metal, the path and us come together, we walk through fire and become better people. So creating alchemy was really about walking into deliberately working through difficult situations to make myself a better person, right? And telling about that story and maybe inspiring other people is that there is um how do I articulate this? Um, I'm thinking about um when we talk about the Christ consciousness, a lot of times we talk about going to the cross, a lot of times we think about it through the lens of someone dying for us, which is beautiful. But in the story of alchemy, it talks about carrying your cross. If you knew that glory is on the other path after dying and resurrecting, as going through the fire and not being consumed by it. That's really the story for me of Jesus is that hey, he went through the fire and he wasn't consumed, he was able to resurrect from it. Um, will you go through it? If you know that thing that is itching you and it's calling you, you have the comfortable path. Would you, with your own, with your two open eyes, allow yourself to go through? And this again brings up the whole thing about vulnerability and shame and all of that. Is that sometimes our ego is just afraid of what will happen when we go through a path where people might see us as stupid or what kind of crazy thing are you doing, but being aware enough, like I would say again, that for me is the Christ consciousness, knowing that you are supposed to go to the cross, and after the cross is your glow. Yeah, so walking through fire, and that is really what the story uh what that particular project talked about. So I I talked about the songs like light, so I say when the darkness comes for you, will you be light? Will you walk it through? Will you be light? There's also talking about there's a track called Geniuses and says that when we give ourselves so excellently to our craft, we have the tendency of reaching heights and heights of excellence and being better people. So um, another concept in alchemy is the fact that no two base metals are the same. So, no matter how you might try to replicate another person's story, you can never ever have exactly the same person's story. So if you say, Oh, this person is doing this, let me do it too, and and have exactly this outcome. You might have a similar outcome, but the exact outcomes, the exact um combination of outcomes, no two people can replicate themselves on this earth, and that is like our soul for me is like our divine fingerprint where everybody's soul has a story. So if I am inspired by Yu Lolita and say I want to start a podcast program and all, there will be no way I would create exactly the same thing you would create, it's not going to happen. I might make people feel similar way, but there would be something that is different. So that is the story of alchemy, is the story of walking through fire to become gold. That's dying and resurrecting to be. There's also the story of death to our old self, right? Is that a lot of times um where we are going to requires a more refined version of us, and again, we that's one of the reasons why we might be afraid to die. Because when the old self dies, everybody's like, wait, I thought I knew you like this, I thought I knew you like this. Why are you like this and all of that? Right? Yet we know that the new place that the dreams that we are having, the next step we want to go forward to needs a new person, right? I share in the project, I tell stories of love, I tell stories of hope, of uncertainty, I tell stories of walking a hard path, yeah, of pain and alchemizing pain to be something good, in the sense that I use this analogy that if you crave a crown, then you crave the strength in your neck to carry that crown. So everything that we crave, we crave the responsibility, the capacity for responsibility to do it. So if you're craving to be the president of Nigeria, then you crave all the responsibilities that come with it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

Wow, you took my breath away. That is just so deep. Um lots of things in there. Um, the refinement process is even scriptural. You know, you are when you go through refinement, you come through the other end, you're new, you're reborn. Yes. And the fact that you mentioned no two stories are the same, so two base metals are different. So the comparison of alchemy to true life is it's it's very profound, and it's a lovely amalgamation of facts of life and lessons of life, and it's really beautiful. So, Ruth, this is the part we've all been waiting for. I'm really excited, and so I want you to give us a few bars of one of your favorite songs.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

Let me see, let me see.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Um from Alchemy itself, I say Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. These are legisl I clocked my way at the death, sculpting an art, dress and encouragement, no cross my back, cause me I know they're here. Oh I'm making waves, see my aunt makes my Alexia. I'm fear, tell him first. I'm so hungry, no anorexia. I'm so fast, it's in my blush, my brother. She's gonna tell me about a bitch. It's in my best shit, see my best dream, please. I was the way it's this eyes, could tell my prey, good eyes on my face life, baby so I had to try. But art is my alchemy eye, again to be on my mind. I'm joining my darkness to light. I'm all the garbage from right. Art is my alchemy, turning me into go, stretching my soul, refining me. This is alchemy, takes me through the fire, stretches my chest, requires all my soul to re-emerge the pressure higher, to learn, to learn, to learn, to grow, to reach the depths of myself, to know, break me. Reassemble this, this is alchemy. Okay, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

Oh wow, wow, thank you, thank you so much, Ruth. I really enjoyed that. So I just have to say thank you, Ruth, for taking the time out to share your story, to sing to us, to give us one of your beautiful poems, and I hope you really enjoyed yourself because I certainly did.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

Okay, I did, I did, I did. I'm really glad you turned out really good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Hey listeners, are you still there? I hope you're still on earth. Um, this um young lady has shown that there are so many ways of communicating love. She's a poet and an artist, and she enjoys giving the gift of poetry to the world. She also has a beautiful voice, as you can see. I think she's also told us and challenged us leaders to come from a place of empathy. Think about how you motivate your teams, how you can be authentic and show up as yourself every time. So people understand you and understand your values. Also, as leaders, let us remember that we are where we are because we have gone through a refinement. Our values are now aligned with that process of refinement that we've undergone. So be compassionate to your subordinates as they go through their refinement process so they can be better people and become leaders in their own right. I would like to say a huge thank you for your presence. I'm sure you took something away from this session, and I hope you have a rewarding and fulfilling day.