EP. 43 Beyond Strategy: Dr. Ayotunde Uko on the Psychology of Lasting Transformation

Dr. Ayotunde Uko’s professional footprint spans multiple continents and wildly distinct disciplines—from training as a physician in Nigeria, Postgraduate medical training in the UK, Healthcare consulting in the US, to earning an Ivy League MBA and eventually choosing to return to the UK's healthcare frontline. 

We frequently misdiagnose exhaustion as simply having too much on our plates. Dr Uko  brings a behavioral lens to a crucial conversation, arguing that one of the critical factors in true burnout could actually stems from a severe lack of validation for our unseen labor. We dissect the hidden psychological commitments and subconscious beliefs that quietly govern the actions of highly ambitious women, keeping them locked in exhausting cycles.

She unpacks why lasting, sustainable transformation must be rooted in our fundamental sense of self rather than superficial metrics or productivity hacks. We also discuss how to spot the difference between genuine personal evolution and simply dressing up old habits in a new environment.

Dr Uko is a Physician, Change Strategy Consultant and Transformational Speaker, Founder of Ayotunde Uko Consulting, and AYO UKO an Ethical Fashion and Lifestyle Brand.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello everyone and welcome to the WeWin Podcast, powered by Accelerator Africa in partnership with the Human Pattern Institute. It's such a pleasure to have you here with us today. I am your host, Lolita Edgerford. What if the most powerful thing a leader could do in the middle of a storm is go inwards? Today's guest has built an entire life's work around that question. Meet Dr. Aya Uko, a UK-trained general practitioner, executive leadership consultant, speaker, entrepreneur, ethical fashion founder, and an AI health innovator. And that is not even the full list. She helps high-performing women and purpose-driven leaders rise and thrive through the most challenging seasons of change, but with inner clarity, resilience, and strategy, not with pressure and noise. She believes that when people rise through change, everything rises with them. And today, she brings all of that wisdom to the Rewind podcast table. I would like us to warmly welcome Ayo. Hello, Ayo. What a pleasure it is to have you here with us today. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:32

I'm doing very well, Lolita. Thank you. It's such an honor to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Awesome. Ayo, your career moves across continents and across completely different professional worlds. Nigerian trained physician, NHS doctor, clinical researcher in the United States, Yale MBA, fashion founder, and now back to the NHS practice alongside everything else you're building. Take us through that journey in your own words. And as you do, tell us, is there a thread running through all of it, or did each transition genuinely feel like starting over?

SPEAKER_01 2:15

So that's a fantastic question, Lolita, because um it certainly reflects the uh more sepogeneous journey and pathway that I've taken through my personal and uh professional life. So, yes, as you've mentioned, I have transitioned geographically from Africa to England and you know the the UK essentially and uh to the US and then back again to the UK. And along the way, there have been career pivots too. And you know, it's it's a combination, I would say, of things. So one that comes to mind is how essentially the main thread that if I was to look through everything is how when you mentioned the uh from the NHS work to my work as a clinical research analyst and then my time during my MBA at Yale, and then back again as a clinical uh professional in the NHS, the thread that runs through that is essentially my sense of service to humanity. So when I think of those terms, I think back to childhood and my dad uh singing and you know, in my ears, though those words, you know, service to humanity, it's the greatest honor that anyone can give, you know, to serve those around you. And um in many ways, I think subconsciously I have been sort of groomed in that way, bringing, you know, being brought up in a Christian, fairly conservative home in Lagos and in Nigeria, for those who don't know where Lagos is. So that deep sense of purpose, watching my dad serve. Um, he was a public servant, he um he was very kind and empathetic towards others and all these sort of things, and my mom too, she was very devout, uh Christian, and served. So that service was almost kind of natural. And then again, you know, growing up, I was nudged towards the healthcare space, and I didn't even know it at that time because we would go to visit my um uncle, who was a GP in the community in Suruleri. He had this um thriving practice, and um his wife was a nurse, and she would help him in the practice, and you know, for one reason or the other, with cuts and scrapes, we would go to visit him, you know, to help get bandaged and stitched up. And I got to see firsthand the service he gave his patients and always excellent care. And I, you know, I guess subconsciously we got introduced into those spaces of healthcare um service very early on. And then I also had a cousin who was in medical school growing up, so we would go to visit her, and every time we got to the host, we'll be told, Oh, she's in class studying. So then we would go to class to find her. So then, you know, I also knew that this medicine, you know, it's uh it's a lot of work too. And you know, so all that sort of tied together with the fact that, you know, thankfully, one was good in sciences. So it the natural decision for me was to do medicine, which again just involved serving patients, their families, and the community. And that's how I've just kind of naturally and in a very organic way navigated my way through medicine, serving communities in Nigeria, uh, the transition for my postgraduate uh training in the UK, where I served communities within the UK. And when I made the transition to the US, it was again a different type of learning about service. Um, I wanted to learn the rubrics of leadership, the rubrics of service. So I applied and got successful admission from my MBA at Yale. And the specific course was an MBA with a focus on healthcare leadership. And the ethos of that program was uh building leaders in business and society. So that community, that service is a strong aspect, and that's why I chose that program. So again, just allowing me to grow and hone in those necessary skills now at this time to lead in service, you know, effectively. And the opportunity then came to return to practice in in the UK for family reasons. And again, just an opportunity to now that I'm here, how do I serve? Um, how do I continue to um live out my purpose in terms of service to humanity? And you know, so so I guess in a nutshell, if you were to ask me how, it's the it's the service and how I am able to um navigate that through whatever change and shift we're making in our lives, the the sort of Noth star has been service.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yeah. Um, I can see how you were rooted in service, just even talking about your father and he mentioning service in humanity, servicing humanity, and then you growing into a community where your uncle you visited his practice. You also had influence from your classmates studying hard and you doing the sciences. So it was always ordained that you were going into the service and the health industry. But you've talked so nicely about that part of your life, but you didn't mention anything about your fashion. So, how has fashion weaved its way into all of this?

SPEAKER_01 8:15

So that's another fantastic question because many of my peers don't know or didn't know this side of me that was, you know, sort of parallel to the more STEM and scientific aspects of my life. I will say up front that both are highly purpose-driven. My earliest memory of creativity in childhood was observing my mom at her treadle sewing machine. I must have been about the age of four, so four or five, you know, thinking about it. But I remember the sounds of the treadle machine. I remember the um the sounds of her iron scissors as she, you know, she was cutting out her fabric. I remember the smell of new fabric. And I remember her creating these beautiful outfits out of gorgeous, exquisite cloth. And I would use the scraps and cutoffs from her work and make clothes for my dolls. And eventually I graduated from making clothes for my dolls with cutting up my own clothes. So I would have a dress and uh I'd look at it and be like, hmm, how can I create something else out of my dress? So I would cut my dress and create a blouse and a skirt. You know, in my eyes, they were perfect. And I used to, you know, my I'd get into a little bit of trouble, but I was very lucky because my mom was beginning to recognize uh the creativity in me. So she actually got me a sewing machine, you know, at a very young age and taught me how to cut out patterns. So by secondary school, I was making my own housewares and school uniforms, and by university, I was making my party wares and on and on. So the love for fashion is tied and is steeped in love, love for my mom, and seeing her do these beautiful things, joy, I found peace and uh I loved. I could you know spend hours doing uh the creative work. Um and it there were spaces that I thrived in. And then, in addition to that sort of experience and inspiration from my mom, the other sort of inspiration I got that really got me hooked into what I do right now is the fact that she introduced me very early on to artisans. So, where we, you know, we lived on Victoria Island and not too far away on Onikon, which is on Lagos Island, and in front of the museum, there's a well-known museum there in those days, there were artisans who would bring their looms and make these beautiful handwoven cloths, and I believe it was the aquete cloth, a showcase woven in a very similar way by women, but it was it was um the broad cloth, not the strips. And you know, we would visit, and my mom would take me to talk to the uh artisans and we'll chat with them, and um I saw the process, how they made these cloths, and she bought me my first hand woven cloth from these women. So I remember the colour, it was a black and white checkered pattern with the silver thread, you know, we woven through it, and I'll always remember how exquisite soft and the tassels, and I made an outfit out of that uh cloth uh for myself during my prelim year in Unilag, University of Lagos, and I wore that outfit proudly. It was a jacket and a pair of coulottes. Wow. You know, I felt like a queen wearing it, and you know, it for me it was the best outfit in the world, you know. So I have those inspirations, and it always struck me um how these women use their heritage, heritage that was handed down to them and used it in this generous livelihood, but also I could see the poverty, you know, they they weren't well off, you know, they they depended on every penny that they got from this trade. Um so when it came to deciding what I wanted to do in terms of fashion, I knew it had to be ethical in some way. So allowing the um the story of these women to be front and center of what we do and finding a strategic business model that will allow me to do that to support them uh to thrive in their communities while also creating these beautiful outfits, bags, and accessories that anyone anywhere in the world could participate in such a rich cultural heritage. And that's how the Ayo Uko, a brand, uh, was um, you know, was thought about and birthed.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Wow. I love the fact that you are rooted in your community. Your father influenced your medical side, and your mum influenced your creativity side, and even going into the ethical side of things, introducing you to artisans at a very young age, bolstering your creativity and your integration into the culture of our great country is such a beautiful thing, and I'm not surprised you've turned out so wonderful as you are.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Okay, so you've worked specifically with people navigating change that does not just shift their circumstances but shifts their sense of who they are. Before you had a name for that, so before you had a methodology, was there a season in your own life where you were living what you now help others through? What was that like?

SPEAKER_01 14:13

So that's another fantastic story, and one that I share often enough. Before the framework was uh was IO navigating uh change. So there have been a number of experiences, and it's one that comes uh sort of front and center to my mind is this sort of return to practice journey for me. So, you know, after 17 years away from clinical work, I still remained in the healthcare industry in terms of health policy, healthcare quality, and um other sort of leadership activities. However, I wasn't seeing patients during that particular career, specific career pivot. And I wanted to return to practice again. You know, I guess I can go into that a little detail uh later for family reasons. And so the opportunity came that I was in the UK and available, you know, to serve. And part of the return to practice journey involved a two-year period of repeated interviews, a comprehensive medical exam, and a six-month uh return to practice supervised role. So even though I was a GP 17 years prior to that, I had to come back in as a GP, but in a supervised role before I was, you know, let out to a proper role. And it's very interesting, but one of the most instructive periods in my life, perhaps one of the hardest things I've done as well. Two months into the six-month role, I felt I was chugging along quite well. Um, my supervisor had sort of observed me with a patient, and you know, we were in a room, a meeting room, and she gave me feedback on that consultation. You know, she said, Ayo, the patients love you. The feedback is excellent. They're very happy, you know, with the care that you're giving them. The staff loves what you're doing, you know, they say you're very supportive. However, you're very slow. You're too slow. And um, you know, those words hit me um because in a flash I just thought of, wait a minute, uh that's kind of my whole career falling through the floor. Because by then a lot of sacrifice had gone into coming back into practice. I had relocated from the US to the UK. There had been a lot of financial commitments going through that process. My son had started school in the UK, and all I could see was things just falling away. And, you know, I was also being told that the initial conversations about carrying on as a more permanent GP as that practice were no more, you know, so I wasn't going to be retained. So again, the plans for more security and for my family and myself out of the window. And there was a strong possibility that I would get an extension of my six-month supervised role, and it would be unpaid. So, again, you know, and it is how would I survive, you know, doing that? You know, so being faced with this, to tell the truth, the most jarring was being told I was slow, and uh that sat with me for you know a few days, and all the emotions you can imagine, just you know, disappointment, confusion, inadequacy in many ways, because it's like, okay, I'm not good enough for the system. But there was a lot of reflection, there was the initial sort of knee-jacking of those feelings and emotions. But after a couple of days, I settled into a deeper reflection about you know where I was, and that's where the journey and you know the beginnings of this framework came together and evolved from there. And it was really the fact that the deep reflections allowed me the space and the clarity to see what was in front of me and around me. So I was able to see myself, I was able to see the system around me, and that gave me the capacity to understand where I was, to begin the process of building what gaps there were, and creating the scaffolding for the next steps, you know, in my chapter. Um, so for example, I was able to reflect upon what it is I was really doing. So, what was my vision for that point in my life? And it allowed me to put that vision front and center each day. And, you know, so something as simple as I want to be able to be productive, I want to be able to stay true to my purpose, which is giving back to the community. And as simple as that, that gave me some breathing space. And then the other thing was okay, why are you doing what it is you're doing? Why? You know, again, I want to be able to earn an income. I want to be able to support my family, I want to be able to get some pocket money for myself to do all the other projects that I want to do in my life, right? And then the well-being. Okay, so are your what is your well-being in this space that you're in right now? You know, take a temperature check of what is going on. Well, in terms of my physical health, I've been so absorbed with trying to get things right and perfect with my patients. Um, one of the first in in the morning, one of the last to leave the practice at night. I'm taking extra work home to make sure I've dotted the I's and crossed the T's and have not made a mistake. And as a result of that, I'm not exercising as much as I need to. I'm not going on the walks that I typically enjoy. I'm not sleeping as well because I'm taking all this work home and getting stressed because of it. So that's my physical well-being. What's your spiritual well-being? Well, because I'm having to rush out of the house, I'm perhaps not reading my Bible as well as I want to and consistently. I'm not praying as much as I want to each day. Okay, what about your emotional and social and you know, mental well-being? Well, thankfully I have a supportive husband, but I've been so removed from the networks that typically support me. So my professional women's networks, I'm not showing up, and not supporting others, you know, in terms of mental, I'm ruminating on the things that I have missed, not acknowledging myself or the things that I've gotten right. You know, I'm waiting for people to tell me, oh, well done, instead of thinking, okay, Ayo, you did a great job today, well done, you know, and starting with that. You know, so, and there are many, there are up to about 20 attributes. And characteristics that have gone into the framework that I've built around this phase that allows one to gain deeper clarity in whatever change circumstance, be it geographical, be it a career pivot, be it a healthcare diagnosis, be it being in a new place, a new school. My son, you know, was in a new school a few years ago and he benefited from some of this. So that was in many ways before the framework, also the inspiration for the framework, and has allowed me the opportunity to do what it is I do now, which is the work with change and helping others through transformation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Wow. I mean, gosh, you said quite a few things there. The first thing I held on to is this feedback, you being slow. And that jolted you, but it jolted you into a self-reflective period where you decided to reflect on your well-being, your spiritual well-being, your personal well-being, your social well-being, and looking at yourself from the outside in and making some choices which helped to rebuild you and reframe the feedback that you got. And that's so remarkable because there are a lot of people who would go on this downward spiral and perhaps not even recover.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

There are, and that's definitely been my experience with clients and potential clients hearing their stories. And you know what it did in that particular journey or stage in my life was it allowed me the space, the clarity, and because of that, I was able to identify the gaps that I had and seek the solutions, you know, to those gaps. So, for example, the realizations, ah, you're okay, fine. You don't like to hear that word slow, but you are actually slow. If you're meant to be at 10-minute appointments and you're taking 25 minutes, the patients absolutely love it because you're spending all that time and attention with them helping sort out their problems. But this is a practice and it is a work space. It's they need to have that efficient structure for each doctor to see 26 patients a day. So 13 in the morning and 13 in the afternoon. So you have to think very hard about how you're going to work in that space and not lose yourself. And that was my goal. And that's where the attributes in the framework came because I had to pause and stop, but in a sort of counterintuitive way, that gave me the fuel to build in a very strategic way my way out of this challenge that I was faced. You know, so I thought, okay, I need to skill up in terms of being more efficient in my consultation. So I reached out to my Royal College colleagues, you know, found courses that I could do, you know, so that any sort of gaps, I was on top of them. I reached out to colleagues who are partners, GP partners. What is it that I'm missing? What is it? What are tips that you do? And you know, so I got that. I created a personal board for myself. Three women who I, you know, trusted their judgment, had seen their own trajectories in their professional executive careers, and they were able to listen to what I was going through and give advice. And that again gave me confidence because there was a reassurance that you're not going mad, you are actually experiencing growth. This is a growth opportunity for you. Okay, have you thought of this? Have you thought of that? So, enough of this navel gazing, you know, think broadly. So it allowed me to think broadly and um laterally. So all these things allowed me to thrive in that space, given the difficult circumstance I was in needing to speed up uh to 10 minutes. And I got there because I completed that role in the six-month period without an extension. And even though I didn't carry on to work there, um, in many ways it was a blessing because I found a role that was better aligned with my way of practice, and you know, so in that way, the frameworks really, really worked for me and have gone on to do other things, you know. So there are other examples of this that I could share if we had the time to.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Yes, I do wish so. So, what I'm hearing a lot of is every day is a school day for you. You're always learning and applying, and it's great. All right, one of the most striking things you say is that burnout is not just about workload, it's about unacknowledged effort. Walk us through what you mean by that, and then tell us who is doing the not acknowledging.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

So, again, it's uh a fantastic question, Lolito. In fact, I'm uh totally blown away because these questions allow me to really dig deep. Yeah. But I first have a question for you. So when we've spoken before, and and I remember the conversation we had um yesterday, and you said, Ayo, that you know what you've said really warms my heart. And, you know, I'm asking you how you felt when I talked to you about your podcast and what you were doing with your podcast. What feeling did you have?

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Uh well, obviously, the podcast came from a place of building rooms for women to find their voices and tell their own stories in their authentic voice. And so when I set out to do that, that was because I had completely lost confidence in my own voice. So when I hear somebody give this sort of feedback, you know, your story touched me, it resonated with me, it gives me so much joy. So when you mention to me that you think I am doing the right thing, it just validates the whole vision that I have for women to be able to be seen as well as heard.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Right, because is a snippet of what acknowledgement can do.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

So you can imagine in a workplace where acknowledgement is intentional and is at every level. So at executive level, at the more junior levels, there's an effort to acknowledge the contributions that a person brings to their work environment. And imagine if that's done not just each day, but you know, over and over again over uh you know, periods of time. Imagine the feeling and sense of ownership that the culture in that organization could be, and that's it. You know, so it's that visceral that people respond to acknowledgement. And there's research that backs this. There's a lot of research, it's out there with organizational research and things like that. The the experts show that there is an association of less burnout, more productivity, you know, with a consistent effort of acknowledgement in that space. And on a more deeper level, the acknowledgement by self, by oneself of that work. So, you know, I gave an example earlier on that all I could see was the gaps that, oh, I haven't done this, I haven't had this list of things I have to do, I have to answer these letters to patients, I have to write the prescriptions. For periods of time, I wasn't acknowledging my work. You know, so imagine after a stressful day, I was still thinking about the things that I had missed or nearly missed or hadn't done. And it wasn't until I stopped and actually thought of the good work that I had done each day, you know, that I started allowing myself that feeling, that same feeling of others telling me that, oh, yeah, good. No, I had to start with myself, that Ayo, you've done a great job today. You've saved lives. Out of the 26 patients that you saw today, maybe just one was admitted into hospital. You know, so you've done a phenomenal job. You know, you've answered queries, you've supported colleagues, you've done this and that and that. And that sense of accomplishment then allows again the capacity in that space to be part of that space, to be engaged, to feel productive. And when you go down those lines of productivity, they allow you to have that intrinsic reward. And that intrinsic reward, in particular for high-achieving individuals in those spaces that we're in, allows them something almost intangible. The things that you've described, the sense of pride, the wanting to be in that space and do even more for that organization. All those things ward off burnout. Because what is burnout in the first place? When we talk about burnout, WHO specifically characterizes it as emotional exhaustion, as increased mental distance. So it's the work becomes the last place you want to be, you just want to get out of there. It reduced professional efficacy, so you start missing things, making more mistakes in the workplace. It's there. Facts, WHO, that's burnout. And you can see how without acknowledgement or feeling engaged or wanted or see or being seen in a space, that becomes more and more of the reality of not wanting to be in that space, um, or being stressed out in that space. And it gradually leads from stress to full-blown-out burnout where one becomes even incapable of anything productive. Um, and when burnout comes, you know, sick off, you're not at work over time, you probably lose the job, you lose income, you know, and there's a whole economic aspect of burnout itself. I mean, studies show $10 trillion annually, I believe this is a global figure, $10 trillion, you know, lost because of lost productivity. Yeah. And most of that is from burnout, people who just aren't showing up from the work that they're being paid to do. You know, so it's a big deal. And through the clients that I work with, a lot of the story that comes about is I can identify, uh, one partly because I'm a physician, so I can identify the stress factors in their lives. Uh, and I can almost see a trajectory leading to burnout in them. And yes, it's in high-achieving women that I work with.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

Oh my goodness. So, acknowledgements of yourself and everything that you've achieved seems to be very difficult for high-achieving women. And I feel it's just a lack of gratitude, you know, looking back and being thankful for everything you've done. And so they're continuously striving, and that of course leads to burnout. Okay, so you make the argument that sustainable change does not begin with goals or strategies, it begins with identity. That is a harder sell than it sounds because goals and strategies feel productive, and identity work feels uncertain. How do you know when identity level change is happening as opposed to someone simply thinking differently about the same old self?

SPEAKER_01 34:51

So, another excellent question, Alita. So I think, and and I'll back this up with an example. Um, identity work, you're absolutely right. It's something many people don't know about, but it is transformative. And yes, it's the core of transforming, you know, into becoming who it is we are and who we want to become. And when it comes to identity work, yes, there's uncertainty attached with it, and in many ways, one becomes comfortable with the uncertainty because it's necessary to grow into that next level of transformation. So I tell clients that the work I do is not inspiring, it's not even motivational, it's transformational. And that means you have to prepare yourself to do the hard work, which yes is filled with uncertainty, but is the only way you can actually get the transformation, uh, the certainty of change in the right direction actually has to come through that uh that process. Yeah. So I'll give an example. During my time at Yale, I was sort of introduced to leadership development, you know, in a very intense way for the first time. And one of the things that we had to do was identify one area in our lives that gave us an opportunity to grow. And through a process of feedback from a very in-depth process, I have to say, we had to reach out to friends and colleagues as far back as primary school and secondary school and university degrees, and family, both nuclear and extended, and even colleagues in the MBA program filled out this questionnaire. Bosses, former bosses from work, former colleagues from work, all had to weigh in. And they were asked simple questions. What is it that IO is strong in? You know, what are her strengths? And what is it that I all needs to grow? And the results of all this were collated, and it was very interesting for me, and the other aspect of this was I had to do the questionnaire on myself too, okay, you know, and identify those things. And it was very interesting because the the long and short was for my strengths. I was being told that I had a quiet strength. That's the only way I can describe all the descriptions, and that, you know, so some would say that Ayo is very quiet, but she is very ambitious. Yes. Ayo is loyal, she's a great friend, she's a fantastic sister, she's, you know, but she's quiet. So quietness was a big part of my strength. And then the other hand, it was oh, what are the things that Ayo can do better? Well, Ayo is actually brilliant, but we like we would like to hear her more. So again, my quietness was most of my weakness. So it's like, what is going on? I'm strong, I'm quiet, but I'm I'm also not pulling up my socks because I'm too quiet. And it's very interesting because when I looked back and reflected at my journey through life in the different geographies that I was in. So growing up in Nigeria, I lived a fairly sheltered existence. You know, my parents did a phenomenal job in ensuring that one was well educated and I was surrounded by communities that was nurturing. But I was also in a very conservative environment. So growing up in spaces where you don't look at your seniors in the eye, otherwise, you're you're confronting, it's confrontational. I got into a number of uh issues with both lecturers and senior colleagues because I'm looking at them. And in, you know, in my mind, I used to think, where else do I look? You know. But in some cultures, it's seen as being defiant, and you know, so you you looked away, or or in spaces where not in my home, my family, my parents brought up boys and girls, you know, equally, you could achieve and dare to be anything that you wanted to be, and they would support, they supported us. But there were other spaces in the community I'd go to, and as a woman, I wasn't meant to be heard or, you know, uh you don't meant to be seen, you know, and um women were treated in sort of more lower level, almost derogatory uh ways. And so that's how I sort of navigated my survival growing up in Nigeria. Okay, be quiet when you need to be, don't talk too much, don't show that you're too forward or you get into trouble, you know, and that's how I survived and succeeded in ways. I became a doctor in that space. Then I shifted to the UK and faced a very different type of conservatism in the sense that I had to communicate with my colleagues and my patients in a different way. I had to be more open, I had to have eye contact, you know. So it was very different from Nigeria. You you know, you needed to have eye contact speaking to your patients, or they'll be wondering what is wrong with you. You know, so I had to learn a whole different cachet of communicating styles to thrive in the UK. Um, but it was still conservative. You know, you weren't meant to be noisy in spaces you are invited into the conversation, you know. And I I learned all that, you know, in this new culture. And then I made a shift or pivot to the US, which was very different. So now I'm in school at Yale, and the feedback from my colleagues were like, Ayo, you are brilliant. Whenever you open your mouth, it bursts of brilliance, and your answers and contributions in class blows us away. However, we want you to be able to speak up more because you are so brilliant, you know. So you can see this thread throughout the various journeys, and in the US in particular, there was a sense that if you don't speak up, it could be misconstrued that you didn't know your stuff or that you weren't good. And um, so I needed, and for that level of leadership and executive spaces I was entering, I needed my voice to be heard. So I needed to be seen, my voice heard. So my one, the one thing that I worked on was that in spaces, especially spaces of my peers, I needed to be more present, more present and more vocal. And you know, to essentially speak up more. And it was extremely difficult for me because throughout my life, I had built up systems around me, behaviors around those systems, assumptions responding to expectations of those environments that I was in that had built this whole wall and had made me who I was, you know, at that time. And I knew I couldn't progress further with that wall around me. So I went on a journey of quite literally transformation in breaking down those walls, so dispelling and analyzing those assumptions. So, if you know, some of the things that I mentioned, what you know, what is it, why is it that I'm assuming that I need to be quiet in a space? And one of the things that came to me was that, well, I don't always have to say anything that, you know, I can just observe. I'm good at observing, and observing helps the team because my observations have always been very useful over the years. So I don't need to speak up because I'm observing, right? And then when I dug deeper into that, it was, I well, are you sure there's nothing deeper going on? And essentially, what I discovered was that I was afraid. I was afraid to show my full self uh the gift of who I am in those spaces, you know, and again, it was like why? Well, it so transpires that I, you know, felt I would say something wrong, and you know, I won't be seen as being intelligent or clever in those spaces because remember, these are spaces of my peers, you know. So in the professional space, it's like I don't want to be seen as not knowing what I'm saying. But then when you flip that, it's like, but that's such a big assumption that you will always get something wrong at every single meeting that you're at. You know, how possible is that? So let's say 95% of the time you say the right thing, isn't that good? It is, you know. So if even five percent of the time you make a mistake, and even if you make a mistake, are you going to die? No. No. I will learn from that mistake. I will own up to that mistake. And people forgive, you know, they're humans. There's um empathy when you own up to your mistake. Those are some of the assumptions that step by step I had to work through. And then built on that, develop new behaviors that were more sort of growth-oriented, you know, to help me in becoming who I needed to become as a leader in business and society. And when I look back to that time, I mean, I have colleagues who say, Ayo, you've changed. So I'm like, in what way? They say, You're more, you say things, you're more vocal. And it's true because now I'm I went through a period of being, I had to be very intentional. So Ayo, you're in a space now, and very consciously say, Okay, you're not speaking, or why? So then, okay, what is it that you can say in this space that will move the conversation and add to the discussion? Okay, I can share my experience. So I've had, for example, instances where I'm talking about race, racism. And in the past, I would say, well, I don't have any, you know, I'm not, I haven't really experienced, you know, but I may not be an expert in racism, but I can share about my experiences with it. So at the very least, in any setting, I can share an experience of that thing and have that as a contribution, almost like a gift to the discussion. So those sort of things were very freeing. And yes, I had to start out doing them very consciously, but I practice them over and over till they've become subconscious and you know, unconscious now. So, uh, and that's what I mean by the transformative process. It's a it's hard work and it's systematic, but it's transformative because I can see the trajectories I have been through since then, and they've created more spaces for me, opened doors, and you know, they will continue, it will continue to do so. So that's just one example.

SPEAKER_00 46:35

Yeah. Okay, so you know, um, I've coached women who have come up with a lot of what you've just said. So we are at a very early age, we're able to connect our certain behaviors, certain fears because of how we were brought up. You were brought up to be quiet, quiet in rooms, so you it carried you, and that became your mask until it no longer served you. So you came into rooms where you had to speak out, you had to be vocal, you had to have eye contact with your patients, and so you started the transformation of self. And I think when you mention identity, you have to know yourself, you have to know exactly what you are doing, why you are doing it, and how to do it, how best to show up. So, your transformation journey is such a great example of what a lot of women are going through. So, thanks for sharing.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

You're absolutely correct. And in fact, on that journey, I discovered that there were elements of myself that I had lost from childhood. Because remember, I said within my family, my parents were very empowering. So I was actually quite vocal and bubbly, and you know, as a young kid. Um, but gradually my wings were clipped because society expects you to do this. So it was a joy to rediscover some of that, that this is actually I'm actually enjoying this product, and I am enjoying speaking. Um, and because it is part of who I am, and very naturally from a young age, and I'm able to rediscover that, and I'm just you know ever so grateful. And you're absolutely right. There's that sense that you know, there's um scripture that talks about letting your light shine, and the depth of that is is this, and it's it's the core of it. It's how do we, and that's why I do what I'm doing. The clarity allows us to really almost rediscover who we are and remove all those layers, paving the way to who we're becoming.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

Absolutely. All right, at a point when most people with your credentials would have been moving further from the clinic, you returned to the NHS practice as a GP. What was that decision really about?

SPEAKER_01 49:10

The decision was twofold. One part of it was the fact that this was a change for our family. We were at a phase in life where the majority of our family are in the UK. And, you know, during that 17-year period in the US, we we wanted to be to spend more time. And especially with our son now on board, you know, we wanted him to experience the family that we loved and enjoyed growing up. So, you know, we made that decision that you know we wanted him to school in the UK. And the other part of that was also, you know, what you've sort of nodded to, which is that desire to serve. And my time in the US was a little different. I wasn't doing clinical work. I served as much as I could. I did board work for a nonprofit and served the community in that way. And I also had leadership roles at the Royal College of General Practitioners, even at a distance. Um, I was leading the uh international membership of physicians living in the US. And you know, so I served in other roles, but I guess I was still drawn to clinical work because that's what I had trained as. And now that my son was spending you know more time in the UK, there was this opportunity to serve again. So it's in those two ways that I got pulled. And it's very interesting how the world conspires to create these opportunities because, in addition to that, COVID had happened in the world. And I think we all know the challenges of COVID, the isolation that came with it. But in addition to that, came a real need in the UK for general practitioners. There was such a lack of GPs, and because of the overwhelming work that COVID was, they needed more. The NHS needed more GPs. So, again, sort of dovetailing and intersecting with all this needing to be with family and all that was the need for more doctors. So there were actually pathways being created specifically for GPs to return to practice. So it was like it's actually a no-brainer. So purpose intersected with life and everything else to create that opportunity to head back. So, in a very counterintuitive way, yes, even though I had moved away from clinical work those many years ago, it's sometimes I just have to think it's divine providence that uh created this glaring opportunity to head back into it again.

SPEAKER_00 52:07

Yeah, how lovely it is when the heart and the head agree with each other. Your heart, your son was in the UK, and then your work is still in the UK and they needed you. So it just made sense to move back.

SPEAKER_01 52:21

It was a no-brainer. I had it was like someone knocking on my door, and I had to answer it essentially.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

Of course. You have navigated professional environments across three continents as a Nigerian woman. Each of these contexts sees a person differently, values different things, and recognizes different kinds of knowing. What is the most honest thing that experience has taught you about the difference between being accepted into a space and being truly recognized in it?

SPEAKER_01 52:55

So this is a powerful question because there are a couple of facets uh to answering it. Um, and I'll try to see if I can, you know, just do justice to it. So being a Nigerian woman who's trained professionally as a physician, um, yes, I have been in multiple environments, um, Nigeria itself, where I practiced. I did my house jobs there, so I was in a professional setting there, in the UK where I trained in a graduate way as a GP, got my qualifications there, and in the US, where I worked in a health and safety organization as a clinical research analyst, you know, so consulting type work. And yes, there were experiences which I had in terms of being accepted and being recognized and actually truly being recognized. And the way that I uh would interpret being accepted versus being truly recognized is um in a space, being acknowledged for my professional skills and talent, which through all the spaces that I went through that I've you know kind of mentioned, I think that was a reasonable thing that was done. I was accepted because I worked excellently at my career. I had excellent outcomes with patients, I was able to deliver excellent care to my patients and the community, and that was evident, you know, whichever space I was in. Now, the the face set of being truly recognized is a more nuanced ideal or idea, and the way I interpret that is how now, in those spaces that I was in, how visible was I, how accepted in the sense of how much belonging did I have in those spaces? I thought of it beyond the achievements, so the certificates and achievements, because that sort of dovetails into the acceptance piece, which is she's a well-trained achiever in this space. Yes, we get it, she's talented, we get it. But recognition is much deeper on a human and relational level. And I'll give you some examples. So I've described that in all those spaces, in the NHS work in Nigeria and all that, I was accepted. I was a trained physician and I was good at my work. In Nigeria, um, I'll start with Nigeria, there was a sense of recognition, of true recognition, because I had the privilege of being in those spaces for long periods of time. And as a result of that, I was able to develop and build relationships with my senior colleagues. And I had a number of mentors across the discipline. So, you know, in medicine, you do ONG, you do pediatrics, you do that. You know, so I had professors and teachers and mentors that nudged me in directions, you know, to keep growing and you know, challenged me. And as a result, as I grew in the spaces that I was in, I owned more and more in terms of the respect, the the, you know, oh, are you doing a great job? Come, come and do more, come and do that. There was belonging and I was owning it. And I experienced that in bucket loads in my practice in Nigeria. I transitioned to the UK and it was slightly different. There was acceptance in some roles because I did many jobs across the country, from Canterbury to the Isle of Wight to Aberdeen. And in those various spaces, I had different degrees of recognition, of true recognition. And so, for example, in Canterbury, I had a phenomenal mentor who saw my talent and knew that I had deep leadership qualities. So he gave me the opportunities to lead. And in that space, by the time I left my two years in Canterbury, I was leading world rounds. He would leave me projects that he, because he knew he could trust me, you know, he would trust patients, you know, that he needed things done in my hands. So there was recognition of who I was and you know what I could bring in that space. When I fast forward to say my time in the US, and I'll go back to my time at Yale, there was that acceptance because again, remember, this is Yale, so you have to be skilled and talented to even grace the corridors of that school. So there was an acknowledgement that yes, you're here, you're talented, we accept that. But there was also recognition, and that actually makes me quite emotional because the lessons were deep. There was a class that was in, and again, it centered around race. And this particular professor, he knew that the black students in the class were the only ones that could give a glimpse into what it meant to be racially profiled or disadvantaged in some way. And because of that, he recognized he had to recognize that you are a black woman in Yale. So you're going to make my class shine today because you are going to be able to share with the rest of the class. We were five or so blacks in a whole class of almost a hundred or so, you know, people from all over the world. So we were valued in that space because only us could share that experience in this empathetic environment that he had created for us for this particular class. And that was just one example of being recognized as not only a talented physician, businesswoman, etc., but also from a deep cultural perspective, you know, a black person and a woman. So on many levels, that recognition was there. And that's why I said it was powerful because it wasn't now just about the relationships and mentorships. It went deeper in terms of my cultural heritage and gender, you know, me as a woman in this space. So I know it's not a simple explanation, but I hope that at least with the examples, um, you know, your viewers can see that it doesn't really matter where we are, the spaces that we are in life, especially professionally, they're going to be varying degrees of being accepted, but also of true recognition. And when you look deeper into those spaces, especially of true recognition, it's intertwined with how well you build and invest in the relationships around you. So, how well you work with mentors, you know, how well, you know, because in mentorship it's giving, it is taking, they're going to help you, but it's giving as well. So building those relationships around you. And all those come together into what becomes what is true recognition. There's definitely a giving side of it, um, but quite in quite real ways, there's the recognition that comes with it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:14

Uh, your response just reminds me of self again, this identity, how you show up. When you are given a task, regardless of what society you come from, what continent you're on, it's how you represent your skills, how your attitude aligns with the task you're given that will determine the kind of relationships that you will have, and onwards to true recognition. And you definitely alluded to recognition not by title, but relationships. It's relational.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:51

That you're absolutely right, and it's ensuring that that interpretation of being recognized is not only achievement, so it's not only the certificate or the doctor or the professor or the um, you know, the title, you know. So it's it's really going a bit deeper than the titles because if it's just the titles, without the relationships along the way, it's going to be quite lonely, and um, that sense of belonging will not be there. So it has to be that, yeah, that recognition, which can be titles, but even more importantly, is the relationship. Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:35

Okay, so we're gonna move to a completely different area now, your other life. You founded an ethical luxury fashion brand rooted in heritage craftsmanship. Yes. For someone whose professional life is built around evidence, behavioral science, and frameworks, what does making something beautiful and culturally rooted give you that the clinical and strategic work cannot?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:02

So, a phenomenal question. Some of this I've sort of shown a light on um already. Uh, so I'll just you know quite quickly uh go into a little bit more depth. Okay. So part of what I had mentioned is the inspiration uh of my mom from a very young age. But in addition to that, it was the sense of joy and the space, the safety and uh the love that I felt, you know, in that creative space. Additionally, was the early exposure to creative craft of the artisans of handwoven cloth. And again, being taken by the contrast between the beautiful, exquisite cloth they were making, but the reality of their station in life, the poverty that surrounded them. Many of these women came from hinterland communities. And in fact, the group of uh weavers that I work with live in Illori in a community, small communities in Illori, in Kwara State. And it's still quite evident how they struggle through COVID, through all the shifts that occur in the world. Um, so part of that was me, yes, you know, being able to express the creative side that I have. But I think in a more deeper level, it's a nod and it's embracing my purpose again, which is that service to humanity, that gift of serving. And for me, it was a no-brainer that if I did anything in the fashion space, it had to be meaningful. Right. And these artisans are the center of what we do. What I do will not exist without them. Um, they provide this exquisite cloth that I create outfits and accessories from for women and anyone really across the world to love and enjoy. And I created a business model around this purpose that allows me to, yes, have a going concern as a business and you know to make some money, but also to allow these women to make an income and thrive in their communities, being able to say, you know, send their children to school, etc. So I hope that answers the question. It's a combination of being inspired and from a young age, from being exposed to the artisans, and above all, serving and um being able to enable and lift up these women uh to thrive.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:51

Yeah, again, you've just blown my mind with how loving you are in terms of the impact. That you are given to these women and to the communities of those women in Illorin. But what I love is still centered on your servitude, it's centered on ethics, it's providing income, it's growing their local economy, so it's all great stuff. So thank you. You speak about the invisible patterns that shape results, the beliefs and competing commitments operating beneath the surface of what people actually do. What is the most consistent invisible pattern you encounter in high-achieving women specifically? And what do you think keeps it so consistent across such different women and contexts?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:40

So another wonderful question. There are a number of patterns that I have observed through my interactions, actually, through my life and uh through the university of life that I say interactions through family, friends, um, but more specifically through clients and you know potential clients. And these are individuals that work in, you know, large organizations, mostly high-achieving executives. Um, this is board members and teams that I've worked with in global organizations. And the pattern that stands out mostly in what I see is how specifically these women handle change. You know, life is going on nice and well, and then change happens. And this change can be change that has been initiated, but it can also be change that is just bestowed. And and from observation, it doesn't matter where this woman is from in the world, it's mostly at the sort of high achieving level. It's that struggle of uh stress and burnout with respect to whatever change that they're facing at whatever point in time. And this certainly has been my experience, and it's still a journey for me because I don't even pretend that I've cracked it all. But because of the tools and resources I have, I'm able to recognize when I'm heading into those spaces, when I'm in those spaces, and then you know, I can kick off myself, and I have those things that allow me to thrive despite whatever change it is I'm facing. But yes, it is something that I recognize in a number of women. So I'll give you a few examples. I have a client who she works in the financial services uh industry and she's quite senior in that role, and she works in central London. And every day she goes into work, her heart starts beating, and she has to go to the vending machine to grab some bars of chocolate to keep her going, the caffeine, because she knows that she faces a strong possibility that in the meeting that they're scared that has been scheduled that morning, that she's not going to be seen or listened to, or whatever suggestions that she gives, which she has been working on all night, she might not get the credit for, or she might be passed on for someone else. So she's going in with real anxiety. And because she has to show up every morning, every day, it's like that. She's working 24 hours, taking a walk home, she's not sleeping well, she's not eating well, so she's not exercising as well, she's not praying as much or meditating as much as she needs to. That's one example. I have another example. Um, this time she's lead counsel for a startup, and her change is that her boss, who's the founder, has ignored her and passes her on for someone who is more junior. So her suggestions are not been listened to. And this has been going on for a while now, for at least a year. So it's a startup, so discussions about salary are not being had. She has a stake in the startup. Uh, she has no idea what her future is in terms of her stake. So she's worried. She's thinking about her family, she's thinking about the investment they've made. Is she going to make it? Is she going to get this investment back or not? She's having sleepless nights. She's not going on the walks that she enjoys. She's having palpitations, she's sweating, she's losing weight. That's another one. Another one in another setting. You know, she's in the medical world. So again, she's going into work because she's she's hardworking, she's talented, you know, but the work is stressful. It's extremely stressful. So how does she cope with this? She copes by working 24-7, um, showing up, you know, each day, but she's tired, but she shows up anyway. And on and on. And it doesn't matter whatever setting you see a pattern of stress, over time, that stress, I have a client, you know, who that stress over time developed into burnout. So she was not functioning anymore because anxieties, depression, and all that, she couldn't function. So total burnout. And you can see the trade, and you know, I was saying before that because I've had inside, you know, insights as a physician, I can see the pattern of stress and the trajectory it's it can have over time. So one of the most important things I do for my clients is I've developed a stress tracker. So amongst the frameworks that I have, one is the the change, while we change framework, which I talked about the attributes. There's a rock map framework, which goes into more detail. But there's also a stress tracker that is meant to help them identify these patterns of stress in their lives with the goal to identify them and change their behaviors around them to reverse whatever stress that they're going through. So I hope that that sort of clarified those patterns that I've seen in particularly women, high-achieving women, and that's just one of them. But I think it's an important one, how they navigate change.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:25

Yes, and I've seen that in a lot of women I've spoken to, and it's generally the high-achieving ones. I think it's because they've learned to carry stress so well. Even burnouts, there's hidden burnouts where they are appearing as if everything is okay, but beneath the surface, they're truly suffering. And it's how they navigate that that will determine the way forward for them. And it's, I think all these kinds of discussions that we're having right now, I hope that they're listening so they can understand it's not uncommon, and they can find their tribe and other women who are going through the same thing but have navigated past it and are still dealing with it. But it's important to have these conversations. So thank you. For women who is in the middle of a transition, she did not choose, trying to hold on to who she is while everything around her is shifting. What is the most grounding thing you could offer her? I know a lot of women like this.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:27

Yes, and um, I've spoken to quite a few just this week alone. And um what I would say is a lot of what we've spoken about uh today. So it's it's it's not just one thing. The first thing I would say is gain clarity because without that clarity, you can't even begin any other work. So that pause, so hit pause and get support to go through that deep reflective process to be able to uncover those layers of what's going on, you know, in my life right now. Um, and it can be quite revealing, and that's the first step. It's that sort of uncovering, and it can take days, weeks, months, it just depends on the individual. And the key thing is being open to going through that work and process. So that's some of the things that I do with my clients. The other level of that is okay, so I'm clear on what I'm doing now, then you know what next? Well, what next is it could be a number of things. It could be, do I need to go even deeper in terms of what are the limiting beliefs that are keeping me stuck in this place? Um, what are the behaviors around that? Um, and being able to walk through that process of a real X-ray look into where you are, where you've been before, and what has shaped you. And that analysis is going to then free you up, free one up to be able to then develop the new ideas and behaviors that will then lead to growth and building up upon the next phases. And this particular process can take months and years, and again, it's something that I support my clients with. Um, because at the core of this, and we've talked about it before, is transformation. And that transformation is identity-based, so the shifts have to be made, and that comes with practice, digging deep, realizing and identifying and replacing and practicing uh those new behaviors. So it's a number of things that can be done, and um that I hope you know will help anyone listening. That it's not the end, it's certainly not the end. There's help out there, and um, that's why I do what I do.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:11

Yeah, very, very sound advice. All right, so final question. You describe your work with a simple belief when people rise through change, everything rises with them. Not just the individual, not just their career, everything. What does that vision actually look like to you?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:35

So that's very deep, and um that vision is is a powerful one because one of the things that I do with my clients is a visualization exercise because visualization is is powerful. It allows you to exist and embody the change that you want to see or the you know how you see yourself becoming, you can actually embody it by visualization. So you're asking me to perform a visualization exercise on what that looks like. That looks like when women, in particular, we're talking about women, especially high-achieving women, uh go through change and transformation, they elevate not just themselves, but those around them. And those around them could be their families, it could be their communities, it could be their organizations. Right. And let me give an example of that. So I've spoken about this whole process for my my in my own journey of change and transitions and transformation throughout my life, geographically, career-wise, etc. At each of those phases, I have grown. And even during those phases that I didn't have a formal framework, I was walking in those characteristics and attributes, you know, which eventually developed into my naming, the frameworks that I work with now. But each and every phase added to who I am today. So the like the Lego blocks into the building that I am today. Each of them has been invaluable in one way or the other. So I'll give you an example. What I spoke about, my big thing about not speaking out or you know, not being so present in spaces of my peers. That particular change and transformation has allowed me to speak up for the artisans that I'm working with now. Those artisans now have opportunities to hand over the skill that they have to generations ahead of them. So because there's business for them, they're able to train up their family members or you know, apprentices in the looms and how to make and weave this cloth. That is a generational skill. They are determining and ensuring that an income stream is going to carry on in their families or in the families of the apprentices that they work with. You can begin to see how that is impacting a community. More and more as handwoven cloth, ashoke, akwete, kente, all of them, yeah, as more and more recognition comes across the world of this rich heritage, it's opening up more and more income and opportunity for these weavers. It's changing their communities. That's one thing. How did that come about? Because I gave myself the permission to be more present in spaces where discussions about ethical fashion are taking place. I am bolder now to be able to say I'm not going to be limited by my medical space and all the other more formal settings. I'm going to branch out and do this thing that I believe I was born to do. Because of that, I'm opening up all these opportunities, you know, for myself and for others. You know, so that's one example of changing not only my life and the opportunities that have come, the learning and growth that I've had from building this ethical business, the spaces that I've come into, I mean, I never would have dreamed of. I'm going to fashion shows, I'm speaking to designers that I never would have done. And more, and that's just the beginning. And, you know, that in itself is then doing, building out other people and their own communities. And that's that's one example of what I mean that if we dare to challenge ourselves and open ourselves to this transformative processes, they allow us to grow. And I'll give one more example and stop there. This process that I've been talking about, the frameworks, the consulting work that I do now, is another example. The impact of the work that I'm doing is exponential. Being able to free up women, especially women, you know, high-achieving women, to be able to engage and give their best and their all in the spaces that they're in without the stress and the burnout, and to actually allow them and enable them and empower them to thrive in the work that they truly enjoy allows and opens up more opportunities economically for them. We've talked about the recognition, being you know, engaged in the work that you're doing. This is this is it. It's allowing them to have the space, the clarity, the opportunities to really grow into who they're meant to be, to be able to live out their purpose to the fullest, to be able to impact on their families. When women are educated, when women are given the space to thrive, their families thrive, their communities thrive. And there's research that has shown that when women thrive, whole communities thrive. And so it's it's not theory, it's it's real. Um, that when this work that I do is done in a meaningful way, it causes women and those around them to be elevated.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:59

Yeah, yeah. That is just a lovely way to end this episode. You've said it all. If women are given room to thrive, their communities thrive, and the whole nation thrives as well. Ayo, it's been such an insightful episode. I've enjoyed every minute of it, and I'm hoping that you enjoyed it as well. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:24

You're most welcome, Lolita. It's been such an honor to be here today. I, you know, I'm so thankful for the opportunity to speak to your audience, and um, I truly hope that some you know, some nuggets have been received and that uh that they thrive in whatever space that they're in. And that's my prayer.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:46

Amen to that. Thank you. Wow, Ayo mentioned nuggets. I received gold bars. I mean, this lady is so full of wisdom and experience. What I liked about Ayo's episode, she showcased her life. She started from the very beginning to understand that her purpose is in service. And she not only went through the formal route of being qualified as a GP, someone in the medical field, scientific field where there are structures in place, but she also has the creative side. And she's imbibed a culture of ethics into her fashion. And what's lovely about it is her vision is to empower exponentially for generations. So we need to think about why we're here, what our purpose is, and to make a decision, a conscious decision, to move away from limited beliefs and start to make an impact in our communities by starting from ourselves and growing into who we were meant to be. I hope you all enjoyed this episode and thanks for listening. Goodbye.